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By pecus
#7482 After reading many sites, I just created an account here because I find this site one of the most well written, professionally executed and very well balanced. Kudos, you are doing great work Rasmus!

I have one question regarding your Sony X85C review (more appropriately, this particular TV, as I am interested in the 55" model).

Sony claims this TV is indeed HDR compatible: (see mid page in their product page here http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/telev ... 00c-series), which is quite strange as it does neither employs a 10bit panel nor the X-tended Dynamic Range feature of higher end models. The lack of these feature supports your statement that this TV is not HDR compatible.

What gives? Can the X85C really support HDR or not?
By lgilsonj
#7491 This TV looks great, but I would like to see the differences between the model you guys tested to the 55 inches. I don't know if the calibration settings would work so well, sice the smaller model has edge led not local dimming.

And maybe that's the reason why in some places they say this model can reproduce HDR, since HDR need local dimming the 65 and 75 inches maybe be able to do that, but not the 55 inches model.
By preferreduser
#7493 I bought a Sony XBR 55X850C ( 85C outside of USA ) on Nov 28 2015 at B.B. for my personal & BR space to replace a 2 yr old 40" Sony .

The new 55X850C was made (or assembled) in Sept 2015 in Mexico .

I ran the latest firmware update the same day I bought the set and put it up on a full motion wall mount with a 6500K white ambient back light LED strip on the back of the set a few days later after I decided it was a keeper.

FWiW its definitely a wide color gamut set with Sony's Triluminous panel and gets plenty bright for most rooms in daylight on standard and some of the other picture modes .

It needs tweaking out of the box. I maxed out the back light (brightness on these sets ) and contrast in all the picture modes and turned off the back light sensor and all the energy saver ,noise reduction and motion settings and I keep the color saturation between 49-55 depending and sharpness at 50 and reality creation on manual at 20 on the slider .
Black level ( brightness ) on other sets should be at 50 that will get you reference .016 black .

I used AVS HD 709 calibration patterns for some of the settings including brightness and sharpness and white clipping ( contrast. )

It has good picture detail ,shadow detail good contrast / blacks ,improved Sony Color and great upscaling .

You can Google or otherwise search for " AVS HD 709 " for the free mp4 or DVD calibration image downloads . there are some basic instructions there also .

720p or 1080p upscaled to 4K 20160p with the new Sony X-1 processor looks great and better than 720p /1080p respectively.


With recent firmware updates the Sony 55X850C and the other X850C 's play Amazon Prime HDR & HDR bt2020 & P3 DCI demo downloads and 4K Y.T. WCG & 4K videos well .

It automatically switches to HDR mode if it detects HDR 10 met data it has HDCP 2.2 & wideband HDMI 2.0a . It also has HDR user selectable HDR picture mode and P3 DCI and BT2.2020 color space modes .

Presumably It's not 1000 or 600 Nits bright HDR like some of the other more expensive HDR ready sets but it's otherwise not bad at all under controlled lighting and has a demonstrably better picture with good HDR content with noticeably more color and dynamic range across the board than 8 bit bt709 UHD 4K or 2K HD .

IMO HDR on this set is better under controlled lighting or in dark rooms to take advantage of the dynamic range but it looks good in average room light also .

FWIW with a basic watt meter in series with the AC mains the TV's wattage use goes up about ~ X3 when its playing HDR even with a maximum backlight setting so it's likely screwing up the back ceiling significantly for HDR .

All in all within it price range and even above it to a point I think it's a very good buy .
By preferreduser
#7494
lgilsonj wrote:This TV looks great, but I would like to see the differences between the model you guys tested to the 55 inches. I don't know if the calibration settings would work so well, sice the smaller model has edge led not local dimming.

And maybe that's the reason why in some places they say this model can reproduce HDR, since HDR need local dimming the 65 and 75 inches maybe be able to do that, but not the 55 inches model.



Try these :

Here are my 55X850C setting preferences with some AVS HD709 visual aids also [black level ] is at ref black .016 and white clipping at ~ 258 on a bt709 color space *results can vary with content /day nite and set to set ) YMMV .


***Picture Adjustment menu : ***

Picture mode [Standard] or [Vivid] mostly [standard] * my preferences*

Auto Picture Mode [off]

Brightness ( back light ) [ 49 or max ] * my preference *

Color[44 - 54] depending on content/color space and picture modes 50 is usually all around decent .

Light Sensor [off]


****Advanced Settings Menu ****

**Adv . Brightness menu***

Brightness ( same as above )

Contrast ( white level ) [max]

Gamma [-1] ( balance the difference between light and dark + shadow detail ) 0 to -2 are usually decent * here .

Black level ( 49 -54 )... depending 50 is usually decent .

Black adjust [ High] *my preference*

Adv. contrast enhancer [off]


***Adv. Color Menu ***

Color : (same as Above 44-54 )

Hue [0] to [G7] depending on flesh tones O pushes red a little on *this set * YMMV.



Keep in mind on * 2015 Sony sets* the controls are actually labeled *correctly* :

Contrast = White level , Brightness = Back Light and Black level does just what it says .


Color temp : [Warm] most accurate IMO [ Neutral] more vivid can push blue > set how you like it on various content .


Color Space : usually sRGB/BT.709 or or P3 DCI (some film and digital movies ) or BT2020 ( HDR etc.) depending on content most regular TV /DVD /BD are sRGB/BT.709 or you can put it on Auto.
it will usually pick the right one .

Live Color [off] or my preference [ med ]

***Adv Clarity Menu ****

Sharpness : [ 49- 50 ] verified with AVS HD 709 test patterns here for *this set*

Reality Creation : [ Manual ]

Resolution : [Min] or up to [ 20- 25 ] is fine I have mine at 20 .

Mastered in 4K : [ on ] probably content defendant and it may auto switch as needed or not ?


Random Noise reduction [off]

Digital noise reduction [off]

Motion flow [off] or [true cinema]

Smoothness [1 or 2]

Clearness: [min]

Cine motion [high]


** In Vivid & Standard picture modes for bt709 SAT /HDMI input
I have 3 pt RGB gains at [max ] and 3 pt RGB Bias all at [0] **

You can also adj. the (basic) 3 pt RGB gain a little to preference . YMMV

**** for 10 pt Gamma outside of using a colorimeter refer to rtings .com ,this review article or reset to defaults . **** On any set 10 pt gamma and 10 pt white balance and 10pt RGB calibration results are usually set specific and best done with a colorimeter and appropriate skills or done by a professional ISF or THX certified calibrator depending on your skill levels etc. .


Disclaimer:

I'm not an expert and * this is not a measured calibration with a colorimeter * these are my preferences and results using AVS HD 709 visual aids and just watching program material YMMV.

Usually no two sets and rooms are exactly the same.☻☻


*** make sure all power saving settings are [off] also in seeings /screen set to 1:1 pixel mapping [full pixel] on all the inputs and verify with a scaling /over scan test pattern unless you have the unusual STB that needs a -1 setting


Use an overscan/underscan pattern like this one from AVS here :

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...can+underscan+

Good luck FWIW mine is much better than it was outta the box
Last edited by preferreduser on 11 Dec 2015, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
By preferreduser
#7495
gilsonj wrote:

This TV looks great, but I would like to see the differences between the model you guys tested to the 55 inches. I don't know if the calibration settings would work so well, sice the smaller model has edge led not local dimming.

And maybe that's the reason why in some places they say this model can reproduce HDR, since HDR need local dimming the 65 and 75 inches maybe be able to do that, but not the 55 inches model.


X850C ( X85C) 55" and other size X850C ,X85C models and some of the other Sonys have basically the same processing video boards HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0a specs and HDR ready capabilities across the board only the panels differ specifically in the X850C ,X85C sizes and none of them have full array local dimming which is debatable on HDR* to a point * anyway and not in the official HDR 10 requirement standards .

FWIW the VA panel in the X850C and presumably the others can go blacker than black and whiter than white and I suspect they can dynamically manipulate that *to a certain extent* in HDR mode .

I've read someone at Sony or in the field alluded to some sort of minimum back light / edge light area /zone dimming manipulation ( but not FALD ) and maybe only in HDR modes in the 85C models . I haven't verified that though so .........


pecus wrote:After reading many sites, I just created an account here because I find this site one of the most well written, professionally executed and very well balanced. Kudos, you are doing great work Rasmus!

I have one question regarding your Sony X85C review (more appropriately, this particular TV, as I am interested in the 55" model).

Sony claims this TV is indeed HDR compatible: (see mid page in their product page here http://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/telev ... 00c-series), which is quite strange as it does neither employs a 10bit panel nor the X-tended Dynamic Range feature of higher end models. The lack of these feature supports your statement that this TV is not HDR compatible.

What gives? Can the X85C really support HDR or not?




The X850C's across the board may well have 10 bit panels or 8 bit + high frc
dither to 10 bit panels . (basically the same thing as 10 bit native with today's panels .) Keep in mind all LCD panels dither up from 256 colors anyway .

Some panel manufacturers no longer make that +high frc 2 bit dither distinction because they work so well .

A sony rep was quoted on AVS forums as stating they were all 10 bit panels and I can attest IMO the 55X850C here is better with smoother color gradations on the test patterns and less color banding and better grey scaling than any 8 bit LCD panel I've ever seen and I have 5 TV's Including a Samsung 64f8500 Plasma and 4 PC screens . I got (lucky ) a good panel in this set .

With recent firmware updates the Sony 55X850C and the other X850C 's play Amazon Prime HDR & HDR bt2020 & P3 DCI demo downloads and 4K Y.T. WCG & 4K videos well .

It automatically switches to HDR mode if it detects HDR 10 met data it has HDCP 2.2 & wideband HDMI 2.0a . It also has HDR user selectable HDR picture mode and P3 DCI and BT2.2020 color space modes .

Presumably It's not 1000 or 600 Nits bright HDR like some of the other more expensive HDR ready sets but it's otherwise not bad at all under controlled lighting and has a demonstrably better picture with good HDR content with noticeably more color and dynamic range across the board than 8 bit bt709 UHD 4K or 2K HD .

IMO HDR on this set is better under controlled lighting or in dark rooms to take advantage of the dynamic range but it looks good in average room light also .

FWIW on a brief test with the Life of Pi HDR Bt2020 demo file with a basic watt meter in series with the AC mains the TV's wattage use goes up about ~ X3 when its playing HDR even with a maximum backlight setting so it's likely screwing up the back light wattage ceiling significantly for HDR .
It's been said Sony has been limiting the back lights maximum on these sets with Bt709 8 bit content anyway to preserve black levels so it all makes sense .
By preferreduser
#7496
Rasmus Larsen wrote:Our review of Sony X85C is online. It is a mid-range 4K TV and one of the first TVs with the Android TV operating system.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php? ... 1436424059

If you have questions please use this thread.

Enjoy.


I read this review a few times before purchasing the 55X850C on 18 Nov.
All in all Its very decent IMO and I'm picky I also have a Samsung
64 f8500 plasma so I believe I know what a good picture is .

That being said ofc. the review here was good as usual .

More recently Sony has updated the firmware quite a bit and improved the picture clarity a little, it has HDCP 2.0 and wideband HDMI 2.0a and HDR ready capability now ,and an HDR picture mode and BT 2020 and P3 DCI color space settings .

It actually works and plays HDR and P3 DCI .....not like a 600 -1000 NIT FALD panel but demonstrably better than 8 bit BT 709 1080p or 2160p .

I think it's a fair "HDR Ready "compromise at the *current price .

Sometimes I put it in Bt2020 or P3 DCI color space in standard or vivid mode ( mostly standard ) and set the live color at med ( back off the color saturation to 40-44 ) and the Black adj at med and adv Contrast enhancer to [off] it can add a lot of color detail without gross oversaturation on bt709 bit starved CATV or SAT programs or DVD's or any 8 bit material the results are mixed it's a case by case thing the results can be very good or way over done and solarized depending .......


.I haven't tried the color space manipulation on BD I suspect it may not need that at all on a good BD in fact it might ruin the pix ?

I'm thinking changing the color space does quite a bit other [or something else ] than changing the color saturation on 8 bit bt709 content the sliders don't change .

Maybe it invokes some algorithms to take advantage of a simulated wide color gamut like Samsung's SHUD dynamic color and maybe it alters the gamma and gain offsets and white balance when it's used on BT709 stuff or no ?

^^^^ I believe live color is the intended way for enhanced color or no ?

The best buy salesperson did mention turning [on] Triluminous on on 8 bit bt709 stuff to make the colors more vibrant ..I'm Assuming he meant live color ?

I don't believe Sony intended this color space changing business on bt709 content for enhanced color outside of the normal live color adjustments but it seems to work well on a lot of programs and you can fine tune it with the Live Color steps also, it's content dependant and YMMV and purists may not like it .

On Android it's still unstable and slow but slightly better with the 24 NOV Firmware update .

More individual selections <controls > of the apps on the home and discovery menus would be fine also


I wish they had not put the freaking Netflix button where they did on the Button remote it's to easy to press unintentionally and a direct button to the picture settings menu would be fine also instead of action menu
>scroll down > select picture adjustments .

Even with the persistent annoyances it's decent set for the money .

best regards
By felix68
#7554
Rasmus Larsen wrote:Our review of Sony X85C is online. It is a mid-range 4K TV and one of the first TVs with the Android TV operating system.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php? ... 1436424059

[b]If you have questions please use this thread.
[/b]
Enjoy.


Thank you for this great review! I found it by chance when surching for new Sony 2016 TV Models.
I own the same model KD-65X8505C (FW 3.317) now since a few weeks and my biggest concern is backlight homogeneity:

1.JPG
1.JPG (18.46 KiB) Viewed 15653 times


I took several pictures from my TV screen with different black levels 100% - 90% and measured the brightness level at 50% picture hight along a horizontal line from left to reigt = 9 points per photo. Brightness measurements were done with Lightroom with Color turned to B&W.

Other test pictures and sample files I used: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nxqay527f1uck0u/AABkueU4q0xwKhHFQpp12DcLa?dl=0

It seems that backlight homogeneity of my TV compared with your review from last year is rather different!
Is there anything I can do against - except sending my TV back for repair?

PS: Sony new Models from 2016 seem to suffer from same "disease": https://sonyeu1.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/312116i80E652208C0223B2/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

Source: https://community.sony.at/t5/fernseher/ ... 057#M19962
User avatar
By Rasmus Larsen
#7555 Backlight homogeneity issues are very common on LCD TVs, and manufacturers appear to have not desire to fix the issue for good. Of course 65X8505C is has a direct LED module, which should reduce the issues but even with these TVs people often experience some issues. Edge LED based TVs are of course significantly worse but not every customer experiences it.

There is not much you can do to fix it yourself. A lower backlight level usually helps reduce the problem but it will not eliminate it. Depending on how bad it is, your best option is probably to talk to the retailer/Sony. But prepare yourself for the fact that almost no LCDs out there are perfect. I have absolutely no hope that this problem will be fixed on the 2016 models. It has been around since the early days of LCD TVs and will likely persist until we switch to a new display technology. OLEDs have better backlight homogeneity but not 100% perfect homogeneity either.
By john martin
#7660 Previously it is said, the Sony x850c can reproduce HDR but there can be no benefit. 100% wrong,
even on the 55" edge-lit model.

My experience;
Sicario, UHD BD(using samsung uhd player)- TV auto switches to HDR mode.
Stronger dark/bright contrast. Noticeable difference in a lot of parts of movie.
Parts in movie in tunnels near end where the shimmer of the water is very realistic, more detail in background,

The Martian UHD-BD, again TV auto switches. Again stronger contrast, shadow detail very good, again more realistic looking, stronger colour. Both movies paused and compared on enhanced HDMI Vs. SDR HDMI settings.
Marco Polo Netflix not as detailed as UHD-BD but colours 'pop' a lot more on HDR Vs. UHD 2160p, and again excellent PQ.

So I can only assume the direct-lit 65" must be a little better or at least as good a HDR performance.
It really must be witnessed but its a definate forward step up in PQ.
The XD930 looks like it has stronger shades of colour and is a lot brighter so is the superior TV no doubt, but I implore anyone to say HDR is of no benefit on the x8509c, because it just not the case.

I am buying TVs since the 1980s and know real advances Vs. gimmicks and HDR on the 55 X850c is certainly no gimmick. I wanted the Panasonic UHD player to connect to TV/AVR, but its too expensive and the Samsung does the job fine until we see more at better prices. :-)

@Felix, using Cinema Pro settings gives me pitch black uniformity and zero clouding. On standard daytime settings, if I use them at night it's not great but with above settings I have a very good trouble-free backlight using standard at daytime and Cinema Pro at night. You can tweak the settings yourself, but I didn't need to. Any Direct-lit set I owned always gave me brighter corners and no real benefit over good edge-lit models. You need a FALD set to really get an improvement.
If you keep scanning for backlight issues especially, you will have them all the time, just try the best settings and enjoy your TV :)