Why 24fps is not enough for HDR movies

[Rasmus Larsen]

The Samsung D8000 (LED) review is now online. We have tested the 55-inch model UN55D8000 (UE55D8000 in EU) with the same features as the 40 and 46-inch models. D8000 features Smart TV, 3D, Edge LED, a new slim borderless design and USB recording (in Europe).
The review can be found here:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php? ... 1304937593

If you have questions please use this thread.

Enjoy

[PuntNL]

Hi Rasmus,

Thanks for the great review.

Some questions:

1) How come you went with the Warm1 color tone instead of the usual Warm2 for calibration?
2) Which adjustments you made for the 3D viewing (only adjustments in backlight and if how much clicks)?
3) Do you recommend turning LED Motion Plus On for all viewing (blu-ray etc.)

Thanks!

[wirk]

Thank you for the review but there are two issues which come to mind:

1. You point out certain picture imprefections like bands, crushed blacks etc. Can these issues be corrected by the advanced 10-point calibration in your opinion? If they can, this set is able to deliver perfect pictures, right?

2. Some people in the US complain about backlight nonuniformities and/or clouding. It is not clear if this concerns certain sets only due to manufacturing. Have you seen any problems in this area?

[Schizo007nl]

Good review!

I've got one issue during reading the review.

The remote control isn't the same as the last year 2010 models. The new remote control has an optical trackpad in the middle of the navigation keys. You can use the trackpad as a mouse when you are using the built-in webbrowser.

[PhilipK]

Hi Rasmus. Thank you for a great review! I have the European version of 55D8000 (called 55D8005, maybe you reviewed this one? Seems that your neither have smart led which the US model has). I must say that this is a great TV with fantastic PQ. However, when the picture is panning fast up and down I can see horizontal banding all over the screen (about 8 layers). I changed my previous TV (LG 55LX950n, same model as 55LX9500 in the US) just because constant horizontal banding which, in my opion, significantly reduce the viewing experience. Kind of tired of this just because of all the problems with my LG, so I need to know if this matter is a fact on all D8005 sets or if I have bad luck when I have actually changed my set a couple of times with no improvements regarding this. Some input from you would be really appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[wirk]

Hi Rasmus. Thank you for a great review! I have the European version of 55D8000 (called 55D8005, maybe you reviewed this one? Seems that your neither have smart led which the US model has). I must say that this is a great TV with fantastic PQ. However, when the picture is panning fast up and down I can see horizontal banding all over the screen (about 8 layers). I changed my previous TV (LG 55LX950n, same model as 55LX9500 in the US) just because constant horizontal banding which, in my opion, significantly reduce the viewing experience. Kind of tired of this just because of all the problems with my LG, so I need to know if this matter is a fact on all D8005 sets or if I have bad luck when I have actually changed my set a couple of times with no improvements regarding this. Some input from you would be really appreciated! Thanks in advance.

It seems to me this effect is not usual banding which shows up in static pictures. This looks like an artefact of the scanning backlight which is explained in the review. When fast vertical panning and scanning backlight interact one can see bands, this would be similar to the effect of wheels rotating in reverse direction.
This is speculation which one can test by switching off LED Motion Plus, is the effect depending on it?

[PhilipK]

Hi Rasmus. Thank you for a great review! I have the European version of 55D8000 (called 55D8005, maybe you reviewed this one? Seems that your neither have smart led which the US model has). I must say that this is a great TV with fantastic PQ. However, when the picture is panning fast up and down I can see horizontal banding all over the screen (about 8 layers). I changed my previous TV (LG 55LX950n, same model as 55LX9500 in the US) just because constant horizontal banding which, in my opion, significantly reduce the viewing experience. Kind of tired of this just because of all the problems with my LG, so I need to know if this matter is a fact on all D8005 sets or if I have bad luck when I have actually changed my set a couple of times with no improvements regarding this. Some input from you would be really appreciated! Thanks in advance.

It seems to me this effect is not usual banding which shows up in static pictures. This looks like an artefact of the scanning backlight which is explained in the review. When fast vertical panning and scanning backlight interact one can see bands, this would be similar to the effect of wheels rotating in reverse direction.
This is speculation which one can test by switching off LED Motion Plus, is the effect depending on it?

Hi Wirk. You're right, I do not mean static bands. I have tried to disaple all motion plus settings and other settings that may cause this problem, but nothing seems to improve it.

[wirk]

Hi Wirk. You're right, I do not mean static bands. I have tried to disaple all motion plus settings and other settings that may cause this problem, but nothing seems to improve it.

Oh, these bands remain when you take out LED Motion Plus? (Are you sure and do not confuse it with the Motion Plus? If you are sure then let's harder think about the reason. This is not static backlight problem. So it must be related to the interaction of vertical panning and picture displayed. Since it is only in vertical direction it must related to how the picture is displayed in vertical direction. Have you checked these: Motion Lighting, LED Motion Plus, Film Mode and 200/240 Hz Motion Plus?

[PhilipK]

Hi Wirk. You're right, I do not mean static bands. I have tried to disaple all motion plus settings and other settings that may cause this problem, but nothing seems to improve it.

Oh, these bands remain when you take out LED Motion Plus? (Are you sure and do not confuse it with the Motion Plus? If you are sure then let's harder think about the reason. This is not static backlight problem. So it must be related to the interaction of vertical panning and picture displayed. Since it is only in vertical direction it must related to how the picture is displayed in vertical direction. Have you checked these: Motion Lighting, LED Motion Plus, Film Mode and 200/240 Hz Motion Plus?

Thanks for your input. I have tried to enable and disable both motion plus and led motion plus, motion lightning and film mode have always been disabled. Any other suggestions?

[wirk]

[Thanks for your input. I have tried to enable and disable both motion plus and led motion plus, motion lightning and film mode have always been disabled. Any other suggestions?

This is then a strange effect, nobody else reported it. On the other hand fast vertical panning does not happen that often so maybe people did not notice it? At this point it is not clear what might be the reason but it does not look as the problem of this particular set, rather general problem.
Next questions which come to mind:

1. Are the bands showing only when there is camera panning of whole picture
or also when there is object moving vertically?

2. Are the bands static or flickering or fluctuating?

3. Do the bands show up suddenly at specific speed of panning or they emerge gradually stronger?

4. Do the bands have exactly the same size?

5. How te bands look from very close distance? Do they have very sharp borders?

Two more ideas which would help to find out the reason:

1. One has to check if the set is still making some kind of backlight switching despite taking off advanced modes. Taking pictures with camera at
high speed may reveal it.

2. Using PC with PC input setting, one could simulate panning and see how it appears.

[wirk]

Rasmus,

Here is the detailed presentation of the banding artefacts in the D8000 from a US forum. Would be good to know
if you also notice them and how serious they are for viewing.

There are three pronounced vertical bars and two lesser vertical bars that constitute banding that can be seen under some rare conditions. Dark grey will always reveal them. They are not as problematic in normal viewing but certain panning scenes of particular colors and shades reveal them. Underwater scenes, grey skies, panning over a dark field, etc. This is not a defect it is a byproduct of the tech in the tv.

Also, there is a threshold at which the LEDs on the edge dim to deepen black level and increase contrast. Some scenes cause the lights to go bright when they should be dark. Perhaps it is situations where bright lit center and dark edges appear and the LEDs have no choice but to go bright to light the center of the screen. Under such condition the edges of the set will be much brighter and washed out compared to the center. Contrast on the edges is reduced considerably under this condition. Palladia shows this all the time on night concerts where the stage is center but the rest of the screen is dark.

The only variance with the two above anomalies on this set are whether or not you notice them, and whether or not the content you are watching reveals them. I'll agree some early sets had other issues (in my case) such as lines in the diffuser panel and even more pronounced banding than what is common but every set shows these anomalies. Those of us who see the anomalies will also see them on sets that some of you claim are problem free.Also, the two above issues are much more visible in dark environments. Nobody is debating that these sets show moments of absolute image bliss. Just that once second all is well and a scene comes on which is a mess under the same settings.

[PhilipK]

[Thanks for your input. I have tried to enable and disable both motion plus and led motion plus, motion lightning and film mode have always been disabled. Any other suggestions?

This is then a strange effect, nobody else reported it. On the other hand fast vertical panning does not happen that often so maybe people did not notice it? At this point it is not clear what might be the reason but it does not look as the problem of this particular set, rather general problem.
Next questions which come to mind:

1. Are the bands showing only when there is camera panning of whole picture
or also when there is object moving vertically?

2. Are the bands static or flickering or fluctuating?

3. Do the bands show up suddenly at specific speed of panning or they emerge gradually stronger?

4. Do the bands have exactly the same size?

5. How te bands look from very close distance? Do they have very sharp borders?

Two more ideas which would help to find out the reason:

1. One has to check if the set is still making some kind of backlight switching despite taking off advanced modes. Taking pictures with camera at
high speed may reveal it.

2. Using PC with PC input setting, one could simulate panning and see how it appears.

I can record a short sample from a scene where the "banding" occurs. Would it be possible to sent it to you some how?

[wirk]

I can record a short sample from a scene where the "banding" occurs. Would it be possible to sent it to you some how?

It would be excellent to upload this to youtube, experts could have a look.

[Rasmus Larsen]

Hi Rasmus,

Thanks for the great review.

Some questions:

1) How come you went with the Warm1 color tone instead of the usual Warm2 for calibration?
2) Which adjustments you made for the 3D viewing (only adjustments in backlight and if how much clicks)?
3) Do you recommend turning LED Motion Plus On for all viewing (blu-ray etc.)

Thanks!

1) It jsut gave me a better starting point. No other reason
2) I tried different settings. You can use our calibrated settings but you have to turn up backlight.
3) Yes

[Rasmus Larsen]

Thank you for the review but there are two issues which come to mind:

1. You point out certain picture imprefections like bands, crushed blacks etc. Can these issues be corrected by the advanced 10-point calibration in your opinion? If they can, this set is able to deliver perfect pictures, right?

2. Some people in the US complain about backlight nonuniformities and/or clouding. It is not clear if this concerns certain sets only due to manufacturing. Have you seen any problems in this area?

1. Yes, I'm sure they can. I have also seen other reviewers do that.

2. No, I didn't see any problems. But clouding can vary from one set to another. But I was actually surprised to see that our 55-inch version had almost zero clouding. Clouding often occurs because the panel is not 100 % aligned compared to the backlight unit. This is a manufacturing issue because of inaccuracies in manufacturing processes.