Why 24fps is not enough for HDR movies

[joro_abv]

Hi,
first of all - thanks for the in-depth review. I'm looking forward for the V20 review as the G20 doesn't seem to be something to crave for and I hope V20 will worth it more.
Anyway, there is one absolutely major aspect that need to be considered now, when it comes to Panasonic plasmas - the black levels/automatic voltage adjustment problem of the 2009 range. Obviously it's too early for any observations, but do you have any trustful information on that matter from Panasonic or any other source ?
I'm on a hunt for a new TV and I have big doubts which technology to choose - LCD or plasma. Both of them have something that I really like and some points I really hate, so it definitely a 50-50 right now.
Actually, it looks like the fight for me will go straight between the Sony's NX800 LCD and the Panasonic's V20. I was almost convinced to go for the plasma, before I learned about the problem with the black levels. So, for me it is very important what is the information and what are the expectations on this for the Panasonic 2010 line.
Oh yes ... also looking forward for the NX800 review

[migube_]

Thanks for your answer to my previous questions.
I called Panasonic Belgium to ask about the DTS, and about the Belgian model, with or without DVB-S tuner ... waiting for their answer.

Yet another question:
How would you rate the new IFC, compared to Sony's MotionFlow (100HZz/200Hz) or Philips DNM (100Hz/200Hz) ?
I have seen a V10 next to a Z5500 (200Hz) , and was most impressed with the Sony motion, than the V10 IFC.

Thanks
migube

[cdlg7]

I have a dilema. I curently own a pioneer kuro elite 1150hd (720p model) and I absolutely love it, but it has a slight problem. On the lower right hand corner of the t.v., there is a; what I would describe brown spot, maybe about an inch by and inch that you can see when the panel displays a white background. It is very subtle to the point where you can hardly notice it, but I am always drawn to it when there is a white background. Now, I bought the pioneer through best buy with a 4 year warranty on it and they have already sent to tech to see it, and he determined it was the panel. The problem is Pioneer declined their request for a new panel so the best they can do is give me an exchange. Of course the problem is that they have no more pioneers for sale. My question is, should I return it for a Panasonic G20? Am I going to be disapointed with the difference in picture quality?

[brian_p]

Rasmus,

It seems strange that the G20's black level measured as high as .04 cd/m2. An American pro calibrator just measured the initial minimum luminance of an S2 at .02 cd/m2. (As we now know is typical of Panasonic plasmas, the mll has increased in the hours since that measurement was taken.) What equipment was used to get that measurement of .04 cd/m2? Do you know how many hours the G20 had been on when you measured?

[Crunchie]

Can any G20 owners please confirm if the three HUE controls are accessible within the ISFccc section with a PAL signal? I've just played around with this set here in the UK and I couldn't see this feature at all in the Picture menus, just the RGB drives and cuts, no Hues or White Balance. I can see the Hue sliders on the German trade show video, but can someone please confirm for me if they work for PAL signals such as live TV and regular DVD's?

[Crunchie]

UPDATE - I've just returned to the UK store again and this "Hue" (tint) feature on the 42" G20 does work on PAL but you have to select "Professional 1" or "Professional 2" presets. The trouble is that this then makes the picture go quite dark, even with full contrast. This is totally unusable, Panasonic!

Also, when displaying a black picture, all the other TV screens in the store looked black but the G20 screen was a very dark green instead! Not good!

Will the V20 have a more usable Hue function or should I expect it to be like the G20 in this respect?

I guess I should wait for reviews of the Samsung 50C6500 and the LG PK7500 seeing as both of these I believe do have global Tint (hue) sliders that work with PAL signals - and on every preset.

[Crunchie]

I was thinking - if I turn up the red, green and blue drive sliders to full (in Professional mode) will this increase the contrast significantly? (it does so on my PX60). I'll try anything to enable me to watch the Professional picture mode(s) in the daytime instead of only being bright enough to watch in a dark room.

[Rasmus Larsen]

Hi guys
Good review. Can you confirm if the g20 read mkv files with usb/lan and if is a gigalan.
Thanks
Tlicas

I just tried with a USB stick and there was no support for my mkv test file. I'll try with DLNA as well.

[Rasmus Larsen]

the only differences i not are:
infitie black pro, which is a better filter in front of the tv. for deeper blacks. how much deeper?

slimmer design - that would be nice, but not too bad

surround audio pro - not soo important for me

digital cinema color- essential?

I saw V20 in Munich earlier and the black level was very good. Better than on G20 that is. We should soon receive the V20 for a review as well.
Also, we're receiving X20 soon. VT20 should be here around April I hope.

[Rasmus Larsen]

While I am here...do any of these TVs pass surround through the digital ouput?

My current pana only outputs stereo, no matter what the source material is, OTA/Digital/HDMI.

I didn't try but the HDMI2 is a rev. 1.4 HDMI input/output so I gues it will.
But did you think of the optical output?

[Rasmus Larsen]

And yeah, we plan to review both V20 and VT20

Nice review first of all , but do you have any idea when you will get a V20?

Panasonic has told me "in the beginning of April" but it hasn't been confirmed. G20 was a delayed around two weeks.

[Rasmus Larsen]

Anyway, there is one absolutely major aspect that need to be considered now, when it comes to Panasonic plasmas - the black levels/automatic voltage adjustment problem of the 2009 range. Obviously it's too early for any observations, but do you have any trustful information on that matter from Panasonic or any other source ?

It seems that it's primarily a US related issue. It's true that plasma panels change in terms of light intensity over time but black levels should only be worsened a tiny bit (theoretically).

There are two aspects; one is the actual change in light output that is reduced over time (LCDs and OLEDs also loose light intensity over time).
Panasonic is trying to compensate by modifying light output based running hour intervals (all manufacturers are, including LG and Samsung). It seems that the backlight stepping is too hard on some sets. Panasonic should probably release a firmware update to fix the too steep 600 hour change. Panasonic told me that the 2010 models have a less aggressive algorithm for changing light output. I don’t know if it’s true but I noticed that the picture menu had a setting called “Panel” that changed nothing. This could be a setting for disabling the algorithm.
The second one is the change over time in phosphor. You can’t really do anything about this but it’s the same issue like on the old CRT TVs.

I have had a 2009 and a 2008 Panasonic plasma here for some time now and see no visible reduction. I also had a 2007 and a 2009 Samsung plasma. Both have been running for some time and I have noticed a minor reduction in light output but no change in black levels.
And about the G20 I haven’t found anything alarming. But I haven’t passed the 600 hour mark yet, so I can’t really say.

[Rasmus Larsen]

Yet another question:
How would you rate the new IFC, compared to Sony's MotionFlow (100HZz/200Hz) or Philips DNM (100Hz/200Hz) ?
I have seen a V10 next to a Z5500 (200Hz) , and was most impressed with the Sony motion, than the V10 IFC.

It's better than the 2009 and 2008 IFC but personally I actually prefer to turn IFC off. I don't like the Philips too much. I has too many artifacts and makes pictures appear artificial. The Sony frame interpolation is the best one in my opinion.

[Rasmus Larsen]

I have a dilema. I curently own a pioneer kuro elite 1150hd (720p model) and I absolutely love it, but it has a slight problem. On the lower right hand corner of the t.v., there is a; what I would describe brown spot, maybe about an inch by and inch that you can see when the panel displays a white background. It is very subtle to the point where you can hardly notice it, but I am always drawn to it when there is a white background. Now, I bought the pioneer through best buy with a 4 year warranty on it and they have already sent to tech to see it, and he determined it was the panel. The problem is Pioneer declined their request for a new panel so the best they can do is give me an exchange. Of course the problem is that they have no more pioneers for sale. My question is, should I return it for a Panasonic G20? Am I going to be disapointed with the difference in picture quality?

I don't know the elite 1150hd because I live in Europe but I guess it's pretty much the same as the 2007 Pioneer pro from Europe? If it is, the TV has some issues displaying HD pictures because of some inferior scaling but besides that it's a fantastic TV.

I know some have hinted that the G20 should be a new reference. I don't agree. G20 is a very nice TV but no reference. The 2008 Pioneer is definitely better. The 2007 Pio has better internal circuits and Pana can't match that with their mid-end TVs so all in all I think G20 would be a step down for you.

[Rasmus Larsen]

It seems strange that the G20's black level measured as high as .04 cd/m2. An American pro calibrator just measured the initial minimum luminance of an S2 at .02 cd/m2. (As we now know is typical of Panasonic plasmas, the mll has increased in the hours since that measurement was taken.) What equipment was used to get that measurement of .04 cd/m2? Do you know how many hours the G20 had been on when you measured?

I don't know exactly why but it could be some minor changes between the US and EU models. The difference from .04 to .02 cd/m2 is not huge, though. It's still not KURO blacks.

We use a hardware calibrator that has been re-calibrated by a very expensive calibrator. The hardware has been manufactured by Gretag (Gretacoder Data Systems) and was called eye one pro. Gretag was sold to X-rite some time ago but back in the days I had a chance to go to the Gretag headquarter in Switzerland because my uncle was working there and had a chance to see the differences between different calibrators. I'm not saying that hardcore equipment like the very expensive Minolta is not worth it but the differences are not that huge.
On the other hand I agree that calibrators such as the Spyder should not be used by pros or for graphical work. Calibrators like the Spyder are fine for most consumers but not accurate enough for critical tasks.
I have been working a lot with pro graphic PC monitors as well so I have tried quite a few calibrators over time. I still like my Gretag very much so I have decided to keep that.

I performed several readings. Some in bright daylight, some in our calibration room that is completely dark. The measurement posted in the review has been made in the calibration room. I took some measurements out-of-box (after a short start-up period) and some measurements after about 100 hours. I never made it to 600 hours, though.
I still have the G20 here and it has been running for a long time now so I'm very eager to see if anything changes. Sure, I'll keep you guys updated

Also, we used the same calibrator on G10. So you should be able to compare these. It's harder to compare measurements from different calibrators.