Why 24fps is not enough for HDR movies

[Flatpanels]

Our review of Sony Z9D (ZD9 in Europe) is online. It is Sony's new flagship TV that utilizes a new backlight technology to more accurately control the LEDs. It also has Ultra HD and Android TV.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php? ... 1474868470

If you have questions please use this thread.

Enjoy.

[nbpf]

Thanks for the review! What is one who buys a Z9D actually paying for? A great display? A great interpolation engine? A great SoC? All this together? Assuming that I am rendering a HDR internet stream: would it be better to use the Z9D's internal engine or would it be better to use the Z9D as a monitor of, say, a Panasonic DMP-UB900? Why doesn't Sony offer displays and media players as separate units? When will Android TV 6.0 on the Z9D be upgraded to Android N? I am wandering how many Z9D devices do they hope to sell? I guess it does not matter!

[Torben Rasmussen]

ZD9 is priced too high at the moment. Especially considering that even DX900 is less expensive. I am sure the price will drop at some point, but come on - it is in direct competition with the LG E6, and I, for one, wouldn't consider the ZD9 if I could get premium OLED at the same price.

You of course pay for the more advanced backlight control system, but whereas Sony (and Panasonic) would like to tell us that these multizoned devices are a brand new tech we have seen similar products before. Yes, there are a lot more zones, but you don't need "a lot" you need "a tremendous amount" to really compete with OLED.

I have stopped expecting awesome new features in Android TV and settled with stable and functional.

I don't understand your comment with HDR-content? I wouldn't expect Netflix to run better on e.g. UB900. Netflix is transmitted in 4K, so what "engine" are you thinking the player should use - it doesn't need to upscale, deinterlace (and bl... well not do any noise reduction or similar!) to the image?

[zAndy1]

Ok where to begin, let's start with the pic of The Force Awakens titles, that photo is completely unrepresentative of this tvs actual performance and extremely misleading. I have the xd9405 and zd9 in my living room and neither look anywhere near as bad as that. I've watched those titles umpteen times and there is no lightbleed or haloing whatsoever, your pic makes it look like a cheap £500 led with local dimming switched off! What exactly is going on here, I honestly can't believe that's what you were seeing on the screen with your own eyes, if it was then there was something very wrong with the sample you had for review, if it wasn't then why post the pic? Also you mention brightness fluctuations, there are umpteen owners on AVF and none have reported that, same with 3D nobody has reported 'horrendous' crosstalk or flickering at the top of the screen (that's an issue that afflicts the xd9405 not the zd9, i've got both and seen it on the xd9405 but not the zd9). Your peak brightness readings also seem to be a fair bit lower than other reviews. I'm not sure what's going on here but in many respects that review makes this TV sound a lot worse than most if not all owners are seeing and experiencing. Can I respectfully request you revisit the pic of The Force Awakens and remove it if it's not actually representative of what it looks like on screen using the calibrated proper settings (ie with no lightbleed / blooming) and not some settings designed to make it look bad. Also some more information about the brightness fluctuations eg what content they're seen in because as i said nobody else has seen that
Attached a pic of the force awakens titles, ignore the fact the text is white it seems to be a common issue when taking photos of that using a phone camera but I'm just trying to show there is no light bleed etc, it's perfect on screen when I watch it with your calibrated settings and the settings I've been using myself previously

Thanks

[Torben Rasmussen]

The pictures are taken with extreme exposure times to prove a point. The exposure is not set to mimick the actual viewing experience, so we will add a comment. You did see the rest of the images in the review, right? Several of them show night skies that look OK (exposed to represent viewing experience), so no need for all the exclamation marks...

As mentioned, we can't produce an a coverage lower than 10% for peak brightness, where others measure on 2%, so of course it will be different.

I spoke to Sony about the 3D and they will have a look at the TV when they have it back. Cross talk was a pretty severe issue on our model. Compared to the LG E6 I would say it was "night and day" difference.

[pgice]

Yes, there are a lot more zones, but you don't need "a lot" you need "a tremendous amount" to really compete with OLED.

it sounds that you are watching starfields all day long ?

its mostly at such scenes you will need "tremendous amount" of zones.
i would say that for 95% of the viewing even 2016 edge lit tvs are good enough to comepte with the oleds.
on bright and medium apl scenes its hard to see any difference between edge lit/fald and oled except maybe for the slight higher contrast on the oleds.

if 95% of the content on an edge lit/fald set is close enough to oled for picture quality.
how many % of the blocky noisy mess near black do you see on the oleds ?
and how many % of the details near black gets lost on the oleds?

in the end overall i still think todays lcds produces an more accurate picture with less issues than the oleds does.
the tradeoff is "slight" lower contrast.
i say slight because 2016 lcds has really bumped up the perceived contrast compared to last years models.

just to bad that the ZD9 dont have the oled like antiglare filter that the new KS models has (moth eye)
if it had blacks/colors and contrast would look even better than it does.

[Torben Rasmussen]

The major difference occurs when you move to the side. At peak brightness you will definately see the halos if you move off axis in which case the star wars scene is starting to become pretty relevant. I included a pic of some text shot with my iPhone at a bad angle - and this is with auto exposure.

Sure, most scenes look pretty damn good, and even starlit skies will look fine because the backlight is pretty good at not revealing the halos when viewed straight on. I am just saying, that in a dark room the difference between OLED and high-end LCD with local dimming is still very visible. And since the price is the same... well, you know...

Another pic of the Star Wars opening scene, with more moderate exposure times is shown below

[pgice]

it seems to be a common issue when taking photos of that using a phone camera

Thats the problem
many of you can afford a tv for 4000£ or what it costs but you cant afford a entry level DSLR camera ?
you can get a good Canon DSLR for half the price of what your phone costs.
and with that you will be able to catch the dynamic range much closer than what your phone can do.

you said it before
you think posting pics that not show what the tv looks like is bad but then you post pictures taken with a cellphone that crushes blacks and clips whites
sure the blacks looks good there becuase you have just clipped the lowest levels

To really show what the ZD9 looks like you need an DSLR and you also need an tripod (35£) and you need to take HDR photos (several photos with different exposures mixed into one high dynamic range photo)
with that you will get a photo with 20 stops or more of dynamic range and everything from black to white will be captured.

example here of a photo with 22 stops of dynamic range:

(open the photo in a new tab to see full size)

[nbpf]

I don't understand your comment with HDR-content? I wouldn't expect Netflix to run better on e.g. UB900. Netflix is transmitted in 4K, so what "engine" are you thinking the player should use - it doesn't need to upscale, deinterlace (and bl... well not do any noise reduction or similar!) to the image?

You are right, I should have expressed myself more clearly. What I was trying to say is that, according to the review, the Z9D seems to put together an excellent display, a mildly outdated OS and an (upscaling, interpolating, etc.) engine that might be perceived as outdated as Sony, Oppo, etc. will release their new media player later this year or next spring. These facts and the absence of a clear upgrade path (let apart the availability of OLED alternatives) do not contribute to make the Z9D a very appealing proposition, in my view. From this perspective it seems natural to ask why Sony is not offering the Z9D as a standalone monitor, at least as an option. The argument does apply to other premium devices, not only to the Z9D, of course.

[Torben Rasmussen]

I don't see Oppo or other manufacturers as a problem for the Z9D's abilities within upscaling. If anything the choices made by Oppo to use e.g. Darbee makes me think I would prefer the Z9D to do the signal processing. In my oppinion the signal processing is more than capable.

If you want a monitor, you probably need to buy, well a monitor. Several manufacturers have dedicated store or sign monitors, but they are not as sleek looking as the TV's are. I don't think it is fair to blame Z9D for not being a monitor. You would then need to do the same for every TV we review. You are of course paying for the TV OS, but if you prefer the TV is quite capable of showing HDMI content only, so you never have to look at Android.

[nbpf]

If you want a monitor, you probably need to buy, well a monitor. Several manufacturers have dedicated store or sign monitors, but they are not as sleek looking as the TV's are. I don't think it is fair to blame Z9D for not being a monitor. You would then need to do the same for every TV we review. You are of course paying for the TV OS, but if you prefer the TV is quite capable of showing HDMI content only, so you never have to look at Android.

Thanks for the feedback. Indeed, I'm torn between buying a big monitor and a small TV. I could not find many guidelines on this subject so far (specifically, on the advantages and disadvantages of big monitors vs small TVs in processing HDR data, in serving as output devices of media players, on HDMI requirements, etc.) and I very much appreciated your comments.

[neander]

You of course pay for the more advanced backlight control system, but whereas Sony (and Panasonic) would like to tell us that these multizoned devices are a brand new tech we have seen similar products before. Yes, there are a lot more zones, but you don't need "a lot" you need "a tremendous amount" to really compete with OLED.

There is "nothing" "new" with these TVs.. I have an old 2011 Toshiba 55ZL1, with 512 dimming zones so i am not sure what is so new with 630 and 512 zones on the Sony and Pana.. and it doesn't seem like they have definitively significantly improved the backlight either, and as long as not something revolutionary happens FALD will create blooming and especially with HDR.

Maybe we thought first the Pana and then the Sony would be that revolution.. (cos they insinuated it..) but it doesn't seem to have happened..

But we basically agree,

[nbpf]

.. If you want a monitor, you probably need to buy, well a monitor. Several manufacturers have dedicated store or sign monitors, but they are not as sleek looking as the TV's are. I don't think it is fair to blame Z9D for not being a monitor. You would then need to do the same for every TV we review. You are of course paying for the TV OS, but if you prefer the TV is quite capable of showing HDMI content only, so you never have to look at Android.

Well, it is not easy to find high quality sign monitors with suitable HDMI ports in TV sizes, is it? I am certainly not blaming Z9D for not being a monitor. If at all, I'm blaming Sony for not producing dumb, tunerless versions of at least some of their TV sets. Indeed, I am convinced that many manufacturers would be better off if they were offering meaningful customization options for a more limited number of devices instead of throwing at the market a huge number of TV sets, often impaired by poor designs (legs that require putting the device on large sideboards, feet that require perfectly plane surfaces, etc.) and virtually no customization option. Customizability is a key issue. Where would the car industry be today without flexible customization options? As far as I know Loewe, B&O and, to a limited extent, Panasonic offer some foot options for some of their devices and Vizio has a tunerless line of their TV sets for the US market. But that's it, more or less. The rest is a rather desolate landscape of more or less ill designed products that, in spite of ridiculously low street prices, will hardly find a way to a buyer's living room.

[Torben Rasmussen]

We can agree, that at least having the option would be nice, but I seriously don't see it happening any time soon. It probably wouldn't be promoted as a TV anyway, so we wouldn't find it in the same kind of stores as the TV's.

But this is perhaps a bit off-topic.